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Same old, same old.

Time to contact Mr P. C. James for The Answer.

In the meantime, my estimation of Mr D. Cohen goes up, and my interest in any form of consumption goes down, food included.


If they follow the industrial agriculture model, they will figure out how they can raise a tuna in a tank the size of a hot tub.


Wow, I usually don't get sad when I see stuff like this, but this one actually hit me. This example is so beyond the pale insane.

Anyone in food production (I'm not) knows the term 'feed conversion ratio' (FCR). It's how much you have to feed the animal compared to how much body mass they produce. It's an essential bit of data as far as sustainability, because obviously the higher the number, the harder it is to actually call that species sustainable.

Some fish stocks have a remarkably low FCR, and when you couple that with an omnivorous diet, there is a possibility that they could be called sustainable with a careful selection of their feed source (but on any industrial scale this becomes increasingly difficult). The FCR for salmon is said to be around 1.2 (which is about as good as one could possibly get). Tilapia is around 1.7. In comparison, poultry is around 2-2.5, pork is around 4-5, and beef varies from 5.5-9.

Tuna's FCR for smaller species is 10-15. Larger species, like the Bluefin, are 15-20. A first-year biology student could look at that number by itself and see that there is no way in hell that a tuna fishery could possibly be considered 'sustainable'. Add to that the fact that these fish don't breed in captivity (no matter how big the tank) without hormone injections and high levels of manipulation.

Freaking insane. Just so we can keep having sushi. And jobs to pay for that sushi.

So, I looked up Peter Mottur (the principal of Greenfins). He made a bundle creating surveillance systems for Homeland Security and the Defense Department. He has no prior work experience in food production, although he has a BS degree in Marine Sciences and Aquaculture.

Dave Cohen


Yes, as you say.

What I like is that you're actually participating in this discussion.

Along those lines, let me hear from the rest of you.

You needn't go to the lengths Jim does. Here are some examples of things you can say.


Hello Dave!


It's a damn shame about those wild tuna.

Proud to be a member of Homo sapiens!

I see Kanye West Got A Computer Mouse Signed By Steve Jobs For Father's Day

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com#ixzz2XodrbM7C

How can I get in on this Green Tuna Venture?

Where's the remote? The Walking Dead is on next.

I almost got laid yesterday.

Lloyd Blankfein Says Corporations Have No Duty Beyond Profit


Are we there yet?

Loved Brad in World War Z.

"Often he loses everything. Still, he drives forward, finds ways to survive, tames the surrounding forces, pushes himself to the limit. In time, he becomes the most powerful of animals"


A bank lobbyist walks into a bar with a toad on his head. ‘What the hell is that?’ asks the barman. The toad replies, ‘I don’t know – it started as a wart on my ass but look at it now!’


So,you see, there are many, many options for commenting on DOTE.

Don't be shy. Say something!

-- Dave

Ken Barrows

More antibiotics, please!


I see know that all knowledge about human behavior can be reduced to one simple acronym PRO MAO. The first part is basic ecology from Dilsworth:
P=Pioneering Principle.
R=Reaction Principle.
O=Overshoot principle of.
The second part from you Dave the result of the first:

Of course one is neither pro-or-con PRO MAO it is just what we do.

a hui hou ...


Where I live in Coastal California, you see a lot of bullshit ventures like this example. Some huge fortunes made in real estate development, oil and gas, and a myriad financial “investments” built on pillaging the earth a thousand different ways. But when they get their chateau and winery, it’s greener than green! Solar panels, water catchment, biodynamic farming, wildlife easements etc. Sure, some forests had to be cleared and some species lost along the way, but that was necessary for progress. Now we’re putting things on the right track!

Nary a word ever uttered about walking softly and letting your desires be simple.

Matt W.

@Damfino: Reminds me, in PA you can pay more for a license plate with an owl on it that says "Conserve wild resources". I saw a lincoln towncar with one on it over the weekend. Certainly, nothing screams "conserve wild resources" like a lincoln towncar!

@Wheeler: I think you mean Dilworth? Anyway, reading Too Smart for our own Good right now, seems applicable here...

Dave Cohen

Re: Certainly, nothing screams "conserve wild resources" like a lincoln towncar!


Exactly right, now we're talking!

-- Dave


"Say something!"
Okay...spent some time over the weekend learning about Aimee Mann. Didn't know much beyond a small handful of her fine songs...somehow I missed Voices Carry back in the eighties.
One thing that grabbed my attention...she's 53 years old - check out those legs...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hbb5z7nXgOw
Way to go, Aimee!
btw...really loved tuna sashimi but swore off it about 5 years back. Same with swordfish.
There y'go.

John D

"Challenge the Universe in your new Tuna Tank"


My grandson went to see "World War Z" over the weekend and was excited about zombies. I didn't know how to explain that zombies have already taken over the world.

Sheila Chambers

As usual the BIG FAT & GROWING "elephant" in the room is being ignored - OVERPOPULATION! We don't need to farm tuna by catching the small ones and feeding them other wild caught fish, that's stupid and is not sustainable.
We must STOP population growth and then reduce our numbers.
We must use education, free sterilization and birth control or else we will doom ourselves to wars, hunger, disease and starvation. Starvation & disease is very efficient in reducing a overpopulated species like us humans.
Is this what we want?
I'd say from our lack of action, that is what we want. We are stupid, over-breeding YEAST in a vat called earth!
Our goal seems to be how many humans can we pack the earth with before we collapse into our own crap. "Homo sapiens" indeed!


Non-human species fall into two categories:

1. things that can be "harvested" so that humans can make money
2. things that are in the way of getting to #1

The result is entirely the same for both groups. So, in reality, there is only one non-human group.... the fucked.

Mike M

@Sheila: You GO, girl! Excellent rant!

Mike Roberts


Exactly right. This sort of lunacy is unsustainable, no matter how many times they say it is sustainable. I didn't even need the FCR to determine that (though, I daresay that's a factor). They are in an artificial environment and weaned onto dry formulated food. They will be stressed beyond belief, so your added factor of needing hormone injections is yet another unsustainable factor.

I wish people would understand what sustainable means but I know I won't get that wish granted.


To Mike - "I wish people would understand what sustainable means..."

I've been thinking about that for years now. What does sustainable mean?

Is it anything more than the coat peg on which the world can hang their progressive fantasies on as our actions lead to the exact opposite, the way democracy was used by the Bush-era neo-cons?

Is something of the level of complexity of sustaining an entire economy, in a steady state, on a global scale ever a possibility? Is that even desirable - for anyone/thing?


I began thinking about beef while reading the post, as a useful analogy. Let's say there were still large herds of cattle roaming around in, I don't know, say the midwest USA, Oz, maybe Europe? The Russian Steppes?

And along comes beef agriculture. We don't need to imagine that; we live in it. People love beef. Beef tastes great! Everyone loves a burger. Nothing's more manly than eating a steak. And so on. We're all pretty familiar with beef and like it and eat it if we can afford it, which more and more people can do.

So, in this fantasical world where beef agriculture exists and, consequently, there is a lot of demand for beef, one might even say a reflexive sense of entitlement - or at least expecatation - for beef, how long do you think those wild cattle herds are going to last?

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