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09/18/2012

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Lisa

I agree, Dave, with not using the word "should".
I hear what you're saying with regards to the crooked timber. It's great when looked at correctly.

Have you ever read anything by Daniel Quinn? I'm reading his book "Ishmael" again and he talks about the difference between "Taker" and "Leaver" culture. The Takers (which we would call "civilized people") that became that way about 10,000 years ago consider themselves inherently flawed. And so they (we) are. Not because of our humanness - but because we left our natural state. We "fell", so to speak, and began to till the soil. That means we are at war with all other creatures at all times. No other predator on earth is at war with all other creatures at all times.

The Leavers still exist - but they're dying out. They all live differently according to their location and traditions but - they are the same in that they are not at war with all other creatures at all times. Their food is also not under lock and key. They don't own land. They might claim territory but that's different. I wouldn't consider these people flawed. They're just living as man was living for millenia. (sorry about that spelling.) Would any animal living the way they've lived for eons be considered flawed?

The way Quinn explains it - we tried this experiment of agriculture and certain things were the result. It hasn't worked out for various reasons but we just think if we keep trying to do it better or harder - then it will. If people have enough to eat we'll conquer hunger - but it doesn't work that way - the population just grows. There are laws at work that we are trying to defy. The law of gravity will not be defied - not even by an airplane. The law of how humans are to live is there but we keep trying to defy it. That's the flaw.

Lisa

Ben

Dave, you're as old as Moses and ten times as wise, what do you make of the "geopolitical events" occurring throughout the Middle East and the South China Sea? Is there anything real their? Is it media hype? I ask because I am fearful a regional military conflict will break out, which then may escalate from a regional war to a global war (quickening the pace of human sapiens destroying the biosphere). Am I overreacting to thew news?

Amy

Dave,
I have just found your blog through Mish's; I can't believe it took so long. My husband and I have become PPAs (I think) over the last 2 years after feeling like aliens our whole lives without understanding why. I struggle daily with why to get up each day (your Joe Bageant post), with how to live in my awareness and in this culture/world at the same time, with how to live with/love/prepare/be with my 2 young children (yes, even if humans see our fate, given the opportunity most of us succumb to the urge to have offspring) given what I think about what we humans are and do...

I find solace in your writing, in the authenticity and the consistent refusal to resort to cheap hope. I thank you for your generosity in sharing your thoughts, although I realize generosity may not be your motive...that's how I receive them. I am sorry that you are lonely. (if your blog can be all about you, my comment can be mostly about me.).

Has taking a serious, long look at what humans are and what we do drastically changed the way you live? Thomas Jefferson couldn't make himself give up his slaves (although he hated the institution) for many reasons, not least of which was that it would have meant a vast reduction in his standard of living. While taking tiny steps to do so, I am mostly and immediately unwilling to give up my 172 energy slaves. Hypocritical and self-destroying, perhaps like having children.

I hope making breakfast tomorrow is enjoyable.


Ken Barrows

We have decided who we are: a species intent on destroying other species and becoming as comfortable as possible. Once we decide that isn't possible, we'll come up with something else. Problem is, it will probably be too late.

James

I will avoid too much comment on Immanuel Kant except to say that he was writing in a very particular region and era. His work largely deals with ethics, philosophy, and metaphysics (notably the conflict between rationalists and empiricists). He was against the skeptics and probably most exemplified his development of the Categorical Imperative- a deontological moral system that formed a kind of universal standard for evaluation of morality.

Yet Kant assumes that there is a greater moral imperative and so delves into the land 'of "should", just like all moralists. His work is largely irrelevant for understanding "is" and "do". The "crooked timber" quote is excellent taken alone, but is not an accurate portrayal of Kant's view, since he did believe man (well, at least European man) was advancing and could, or should, reach an enlightened end state. A utopia explained by his rationale, of course.

We all know how that turned out. To his credit, though, he opposed German Idealism (and being claimed as part of such) and nationalism, which lead to increasing military conflict throughout the following centuries.

Regardless, I think it is interesting to see how some have spent so much time analyzing the human condition yet seem so oblivious to its true, destructive, petty nature. I guess no one wants to be called the monster. But if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck....

Mike Roberts

Well, yes, you make a good point about not using "should", but I think that if all I was left with was what the human condition actually is, I might well slit my wrists. If I truly thought that there was no hope, at all, for any grandchildren I may have, then I might as well either do the aforementioned task or just not care about any of this and do exactly the same as most others who have the opportunity; extract as much as I can from others and have as jolly a time as I can possibly manage.

There is certainly a high probability that humans, along with most other species, will go extinct before the end of the century (with some projections showing a rise of 6C by then), but I remain hopeful that there is some future for any grandchildren that I may have and a reason not to discourage my kids from having those grandchildren (in strictly limited numbers, of course). But perhaps the only way to get that wish is for civilisation to collapse very, very soon.

passenger66

I believe in psychology there is something called "The Tyranny of the Shoulds".
Rather than saying to those one can (and especially to those one cannot avoid) affect(ing), "You should...", the advice is to say something more like "I think it would be better if you...".

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