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05/20/2012

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raintonite

I agree that the austerity v growth dialogue is a false binary. Life often isn't just an either-or proposition. There are many shades, if you like, in between; as well as other options outside (given the imagination) of the binary.

Also I agree that resource constraints (diminishing resources and/or competition) must play a part in the complex equation that have limited growth potential. The neo-classical idea that capital is a creator of resources, especially as a substitute for basic resources like oil, is laughable.

One of the big themes during my time on Wall Street back in the 80s was the lament about the lack of new "horizon" industries, that is, entirely new industries like computing that would both require new hardware and software to spur growth by taking earth's resources, mineral and human, and converting them into investment opportunities - i.e. money for the bankers. I'm sure this part of the equation weighs heavily on future growth prospects as well. Funny money chasing too few new investment opportunities, and instead seeking rentier income that is slowly draining the life blood from our economies. (In Ireland they had their first reported case of child malnutrition. Apparently this isn't uncommon. Just not reported. And forget about the suicide rate that is sky-rocketing. Greece, forgedda about it!)

Of course the entire dialogue is severly constrained by how we define growth. The current debate demands we grow as we did previously, by taking already diminishing resources in their virgin states and turning them into ever more commodities.

An alternative would to be the growth of powering-down. Put some people to work dismantaling some infrastructure and reforming it. Take others to rebuild. Put more people on the land. Use any energy left wisely and frugally. Cut the birth rate by at least half world wide.

Ain't, never going to happen.

Dave Cohen

Re: Funny money chasing too few new investment opportunities, and instead seeking rentier income that is slowly draining the life blood from our economies

Nicely put.

-- Dave

Mister Roboto

I have an idea about why growth slowed during the late seventies/ early eighties. A system that grows can only grow so much, so that when it reaches a certain point, its growth must necessarily slow down. Of course, this is going to be a serious problem for a human social system whose well-being depends entirely upon growth for the sake of growth! The analogy I use is an apple on a tree-branch. The nineteenth and first-half twentieth centuries were the green-to-reddish "growth" phase. 1946-76 was the "fresh-ripe" stage, and 1976-2006 was the "overripe" stage". We are now in the "off-the-branch-and-rotting" stage. Heavens help us.

John D

Mister Roboto- My tree analogy with growth says that when a tree gets too large, the energy it takes to get the water from the roots to the top of the tree takes more energy than the growth it obtains. Our society has become so large and complex that the infrastructure to maintain it costs more than the growth is worth.

Alexander Ač

Dave, regarding your question, I note that "per-capita" energy consumption peaked in 1979. Could it be that in order to sustain unsustainable the debt began to rise (exponencially)?

US per capita is here (but is holds true globally): http://energyforumonline.com/705/u-s-per-capita-energy-consumption-and-expenditures/

Alex

IDontExist

Almost all say: Government spending is out of control, unsustainable, and uncurbed will:
Trigger total economic collapse
Democrats say: Austerity, cutting government spending would contract the economy and:
Trigger total economic collapse
Republicans say: Increasing taxes enough to significantly offset spending would:
Trigger total economic collapse
Democrats and Republicans say: Letting ultra- big businesses and financial firms fail would:
Trigger total economic collapse
Libertarians say: Bail outs prevent real recovery, increase moral hazard, and will in the end:
Trigger total economic collapse.

Funny thing is, I believe them all.

BS

Hummm, 1980. Reagan entered office in 82. The whole trickle down theory began it's long test. Perhaps debt increased because there was an insufficient 'trickle'. Wealth trickled to fewer and fewer while debt trickled to more and more. Disposable income for the middle class trickled out the door into the hands of bankers bent on giving you no interest for a year (and 20% thereafter). Even H.W. Bush said bank loan rates were too high, but he was quickly smacked down.

Perhaps there are limiting resource constraints but there is certainly no limit to the greed of the tricklers.

Don Levit

I have a chart from mybudget 360.com which shows Total Credit Market Debt Owed and GDP since 1970.
In 1970, the 2 were about the same.
In 2010, TCMDO was over $50 trillion, while GDP was $15 trillion.
Instead of a dollar of debt producing a dollar of GDP, it takes over $3 of debt to produce a dollar of GDP.
Don Levit

Planningdown.wordpress.com

Great post and comments. Clearly there are some diminishing returns at work here, as each increment of growth requires an ever larger increment of debt to fuel it.

As for the the growth vs. austerity argument, it does seem that all else being equal austerity hurts the poor more proportionally than the wealthy. At least in theory the Krugman 'growth' model would help the poor and middle hold on to a greater share of a shrinking pie.

Will either approach solve anything? Of course not. The charts you provide show that growth costs too much anymore. And everybody knows austerity is just another excuse to balance the books on the backs of those least able to afford it.

The more I think about it though, the more I agree with IDontExist's comment above that we're damned either way.

glaucus
www.planningdown.wordpress.com

T E Cho

In the 80's and 90's , investments went overseas , and were cut back % here. And it continues. Fwiw.

Doug Guillory

In my view a big part of the poor return on capital lies in the poor investments in bubble economies. We now have a huge overhang in housing, more housing than people need or can afford, representing money thrown away. To a much smaller extent the dot-com bubble caused loss of capital. Easy money is a dangerous thing.

sharonsj

I'm with BS. Real income for most folks has been flat for 30 years. In order to sustain a good middle class life, you could turn your house into a loan account and you could charge what you wanted/needed on a credit card. But that ends when housing sinks, you lose your job, and/or you can't earn enough to pay all the bills.

Now throw in the cost of private health care. Premiums are out of sight for lousy coverage. Get sick and kiss your savings and belongings good-bye. Something like 60-70% of all bankruptcies are due to medical costs.

Plus, I'd hate to think of my house and property as money thrown away. It still costs less to live in it than renting.

Mike Roberts

Yeah, Gilding went off the rails in the last four minutes. After explaining the total breakdown of the global economy, after explaining we're in systemic collapse, he then thinks we'll be able to solve the individual problems, that it's no worse a situation than Pearl Harbor or a set of business decisions. "The only thing we need to change is how we think and how we feel". Ah, right. Phew! Everything is going to be fine - I'll change the way I think and feel tomorrow and life will be great again.

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