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Edward  Boyle

So if FFs stopped tomorrow would the oceans be able to exist and how much and how quickly will Peak oil and the debt acclerated industrial civilizational collapse work to save the biosphere? All GW and similar scientific criticism does not mention this, taking a linear increase in CO2 as a given. To take a total stop of CO2 emissions quickly for granted would be foolhardy. We must however hope that societal collpase and perhaps a 90% die off of humanity accompanying this would be enough of a change to allow a long term sustainable biosphere. So Peak Oil and debt collapse is our greatest hope.

Edward  Boyle

And if Greenland and perhaps Antarctica melt in the next ceentury or so it could add a lot of water to the oceans surface making it more basic again even if the fossil fuels stop being burnt tomorrow due to the current levels of CO2 already in the atmosphere.

Volume figures of water I don't know off the top of my head but we are talking about the surface of the ocean which is where all this is taking place i believe so the effect would be greater there. So GW could remedy some of its own problems. None of this looks good short term for presently structured civilization but this is not what we are discussing here but rather long-term biosphere viability.

Tony Weddle

A small point. Jeremy Jackson didn't say the oceans might be devoid of fish by 2040 but devoid of large fish.

As oceans warm, I seem to remember reading something about oceans becoming a net emitter, rather than a sink, of carbon. Do you know anything about this?

The video is good, until near the end, where the usual good news has to be given; if we get more efficient, it's a win-win situation - economic boost, energy independence, blah, blah. This is bullshit because expanding the economy destroys habitats. You'd thing these people would realise that.


The destruction of life in the sea is mirrored by another neglected mass extinction, vegetation on the land. Levels of tropospheric ozone in the atmosphere have become intolerable to trees after decades of cumulative exposure, and recently even annual plants and crops exhibit the characteristic symptoms of damage to their stomata.

We are just going to have to ration fuel and restrict its use to only the most critical purposes, while we transition to clean energy sources on an emergency basis. Otherwise mass famine will come sooner rather than later, and the forests will burn. They have already turned from being CO2 sinks to being CO2 emitters.

Links to the most recent research here: http://witsendnj.blogspot.com/2010/08/when-musics-over.html


Sorry, Tony Weddle, but this is what the article actually says:

"the sea will be devoid of fish and other large marine organisms"

I read that as fish of all sizes + mammals like whales and dolphins, walruses and sea lions and otters.


Gail, totally agree that energy rationing must be the way to go. It has been worked out in detail by The Lean Economy Connection at http://www.teqs.net/ , but at present it seems as politically unthinkable as everything else that might be adequate.


I think you have a thorough understanding in this matter. You describe in detail all here.

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